| K: |
Right next to me, in the hot seat, Jane Espenson. |
| J: |
Hey. How ya doing. |
| K: |
Writer, executive producer... |
| J: |
Co-executive producer. Co means not. |
| K: |
Jane of all trades. I think she said that last
time. |
| C: |
Yes she did. |
| J: |
Really? |
| K: |
Yes. |
| J: |
Oh, I am very clever. |
| C: |
Welcome back to the show. |
| K: |
This is the third time Jane has been on the show.
It has become a ritual. |
| C: |
Yes and each time she comes at the end of the
season to explain things to us. As much as she can
and maybe drop us a few hints and leave us wanting
more apparently. |
| K: |
We are going to talk about last night's season
finale, Two To Go and Grave. |
| C: |
But you didn't write either of these episodes,
but in fact you didn't write as much this season
as you have in the past. Why? |
| J: |
Because I wrote a lot early in the season. I wrote
episode three and half of episodes four and five
and Doublemeat Palace in the middle of the year.
So that was a total of three. The other writers
at that point had all written like two or two and
a half. So they all got assigned, the remainder
of the episodes and then they were all gone. |
| C: |
Did you want to... |
| J: |
Oh god I would have loved to write more. We have
a very big staff right now. |
| C: |
Were doing something, were you writing for the
comic books or... |
| J: |
No, I was just sitting there twiddling my thumbs. |
| C: |
See I thought you were busy doing something else
and maybe that was why. |
| J: |
I did the four part Buffy comic, which is called
Haunted, which is out now. So that took some of
my time but this year we're hoping with Buffy, Angel
and Firefly all needing to be written for... um
we're hoping we all get more. |
| K: |
I saw a little preview for Firefly, it's all sci-fi. |
| J: |
It's all sci-fi. |
| C: |
Isn't it sci-fi western? |
| J: |
It is very much a western. When you go on a planet,
there's horses. It's true, there are horses in the
pilot. It really has the feel of a western. You
know, what Star Trek was originally pitched as,
Wagon Train To The Stars. Only this one really feels
like a western. |
| C: |
And that will be on Friday nights on Fox. Sunday
nights on the WB will have Angel at 9. And then
we have Buffy on Tuesdays at 8. Nice evenly spread
week. Someone did want to know what it was, what
entailed the co-writing process. Because you seem
to be the only one involved in co-writing. Why is
that and how does that work out. |
| J: |
I think because I am always the one volunteering.
Going hey, who needs help, I'll do something. The
two different co-writing experiences this year,
were very different. One was with Doug and one was
with Fury. Doug and I tried something we really
hadn't tried before, I wrote a whole draft, he did
his rewrite on it. Then I rewrote him and he rewrote
me. It didn't really work well, because both of
us would throw out all the other persons stuff and
write our own version. And then the next person
would get and throw out all the other persons stuff
and rewrite. So it was like writing a whole script.
It was two views of Mt Fuji instead of... whatever.
And Fury and I did it completely differently. Which
is much more the normal way to do it. I wrote a
half and he wrote a half. And that worked especially
well for that episode called Life Serial. Because
that was the on where, the four different storylines,
each in a separate act. Buffy tries a different
job. |
| C: |
Which two did you write. |
| J: |
I wrote the last two, Mummy Hand in the Magic
Shop and um Kitten Poker with Spike. That was a
fun one, I really like that, I like writing the
comedies. |
| C: |
Speaking of which, your first episode of the season,
Afterlife was not a comedy. It was of the more serious
ones you've ever written. |
| J: |
Absolutely the most serious one. |
| C: |
We told you how much we liked that episode after
it aired and you said it was such a departure for
you, can you go into that a little bit? |
| J: |
Yeah uh, it was, I don't quite remember how the
assigning of it happened. I think it came up, I
would normally be third in the rotation. Marti's
the top, then David Fury then me. So it would make
sense that episode three would be mine. I normally
write comedy and I think I remember Joss saying,
you don't have to do this one. If you want you can
wait for a comedy, but, Doug also said he wanted
to write a comedy and Fury wanted to write a comedy.
So, you're probably going to want to take this one.
So I thought ok, we'll give it a try. I actually
had a wonderful time writing it. It's actually interesting
finding other ways to be entertaining. It was very
challenging and it turned out really well, I was
pleased with it. |
| C: |
It was one of the better episodes, for me personally,
this season. It actually spawned what will be my
vote for best one liner of the entire year and that
is Spike, the line where he says "Every night
I saved you". That is my absolute favorite
line. |
| J: |
Ohhh, thank you. I was very fortunate on that,
because usually those moments like that are all
Joss. I've commented before that if anyone ever
compliments a line from an episode, it's a Joss
line. That scene was just like I wrote it in the
first draft. Marti said, this is great, this is
a great scene. I think she was saying I didn't know
you could write that good. Nah, nah, Marti's cool.
But she really loved that scene and I was very fortunate
that it stayed how I wrote it. I surprised myself
a little with that. There was stuff in that episode
that was completely changed, much of it was Joss.
The moment I think is so amazing of Anya cutting
herself and laughing, Joss pitched just off the
top of his head. What if this happened. |
| C: |
That was one of the creepiest moments of the season.
Did have a couple questions about Doublemeat Palace
and Afterlife, let me get to those. About Afterlife,
when Buffy went to Spikes crypt and sat there in
silence, in Afterlife, why do you think she was
there? As the writer of the episode or just as a
fan what is going through Buffy's mind at that point
and in particular during Spike's every night I saved
you speech. |
| J: |
Yes she sat there in silence with him there. I
think she didn't know why she was there. She wanted
to be with someone... who wasn't demanding anything
of her... and wasn't expecting anything. And someone
who could understand, because he has the line I
really like where he looks at her hands and he knows
right away she crawled out of the grave. And it's
hard to hear, the line that gets a little lost but
he says "I've done it myself" or been
there. There is the implication that he is identifying
with her because he also crawled out of his own
grave. Then when he says the I've saved you lots
of times, I think all we can do is know what we
would be thinking and the kind of person Buffy is...
she needs to be thinking, wow what a guy. Buffy
doesn't give a lot. Buffy takes it all in and she
has her deep feelings but she doesn't open up to
people. She doesn't tell them what she's thinking,
she doesn't like to show what she's thinking. Maybe
she is afraid of demanding something from them that
she's afraid they won't give. But she tends to be
very closed off as a character. Which is wonderful
and interesting fault to play with. |
| C: |
It kind of comes back to kick her in the ass in
the end, doesn't it. |
| J: |
I think the most brilliant thing we did this season...
well the musical, but right behind the musical,
is this whole maybe her insane delusion. It makes
so much sense, when you actually look at it. You
inserted Dawn into this fantasy now these three
guys are your nemesis'. Your fantasy's falling apart
and your fantasy isn't comforting you anymore. Your
not happy in this world. And they say your moment
of lucidity last summer, when she died. It all made
a lot of sense. I think part of what made that make
sense is that Buffy is so much in her own head.
We know Buffy is always a little bit of an observer,
she's watching the world a little bit. So I think
after Spike said the thing about I saved you every
night, I think Buffy kept her own counsel. I think
Buffy didn't show him what it meant for her to hear
him say that. Which is exactly why the relationship
with Spike didn't work out. It didn't really not
work out because he didn't have a soul... the fact
that she can't love him has to do with her so much
more than it has to do with him. She finds it so
hard to love. |
| C: |
A lot of people just want to blame it on Spike.
I'm not saying he's not at fault for anything he's
done... I'm not saying that, but it does go both
ways. There both kind of messed up. |
| J: |
They are both kind of messed up. Of course anytime
we talk about the Buffy Spike relationship, we should
remember, he did a very very bad thing. |
| C: |
How did you feel about that? Because we know you
like Spike. |
| J: |
I love Spike. I was very worried about the attempted
rape... because that's not something you play around
with. That's not something... it's very hard to
come back from. And you know, you can say Luke and
Laura came back from it, but that was a different
time. I think we have to be very careful that we
are not saying anything about humans. When we say
that Spike looked into his soul, at that moment,
and saw the demon in him and that's what made him
want to go get a soul. |
| C: |
Ok, ok, this is good. Thank you for going here. |
| J: |
Yes in my mind, we did a big ole mislead on you
all. Where we wanted you to think he gonna go get
the chip. We knew, the whole time, from the very
beginning he was gonna go get a soul. And when he
says I want Buffy to have what she deserves, he
means a lover with a soul. Very vague and if we
are vague, we're vague for a reason. |
| |
*Lots of Spike soul / Spike human and Fury looks
at you like you are insane talk |
| C: |
Would it be fair to say that Cordelia and Angel
and Buffy and Spike are Buffy / Angel like. It seems
like on the surface the formula is just being repeated.
Cordy is a warrior, ala Buffy and Spike is a souled
vampire ala Angel. To me it seems like Cordy and
Spike are becoming Buffized and Angelized in order
to accommodate a romantic story, am I completely
wrong? |
| J: |
It's an interesting supposition, you can make
the argument. Certainly we are fighting that, we...
I wasn't there on the decision to train Cordy and
make her tougher. I mean suppose we decided we can't
do that because it makes her too much like Buffy
and then we would be repeating the Buffy / Angel
romance. Well then screwing Cordy out of a chance
to be a good strong female. In souling Spike, I
was in on those conversations, and we actually had
a lot of discussion about whether or not we in fact
should not do it. Because it is exactly like Angel
and after much discussion we decided it's only like
Angel if we let it be. They have a very different
dynamic. Buffy has never been gooey eyed over Spike
the way she was with Angel, their relationship.
The outside world is what kept Buffy and Angel from
being together and in the sense of the Gypsy curse.
What keeps Buffy and Spike from being together are
their very natures. They are not star crossed lovers,
they are two people who are thwarted in any attempt
to come together by who they are. To me it feels
very different and the last thing we would want
to do is repeat a formula. |
| |
*More Spike soul talk |
| J: |
He's loves bitch and he knows it. We have established
that before, before he even knew he loved Buffy.
He doesn't get over things. |
| C: |
He's a little obsessive. |
| J: |
He saw Hallie and recognized her as
either being or looking like Cicely. He doesn't
get over stuff. |
| C: |
Was that like gag casting or was that
on purpose. |
| J: |
I'm not sure. I know they didn't call
her and bring her in. She came in and auditioned
to be Hallie but when she had the role... we made
a decision to play with that. |
| C: |
The scene in Seeing Red, which I love
so much, right after the attack when he is in his
crypt talking with Clem... |
| J: |
Yeah we love Clem. |
| K: |
Who doesn't love Clem. |
| C: |
Exactly and people want Clem and Sophie
to get together. |
| K: |
I say Clem and Dawn. |
| C: |
Ok, stop. But that scene, it was amazing.
Was it written later in the episode because... do
you know? |
| J: |
Yeah, I think it was. There were a
number of Clem scenes that we inserted in the last
couple episodes because they came in short. It's
easy to bring Clem in to do it. It's easier than
to bring in the stars who are already doing the
next weeks episode. |
| C: |
That seems like a really important
scene for Spike. |
| J: |
Yeah I think that was one of the ones
that was written late. |
| C: |
Cool, let's get to Doublemeat Palace.
Somebody wants to know, was the symbolism of the
demon in DP deliberate and if so what is it a metaphor
for? |
| J: |
It was an enormous penis, but... we
did not realize that at the time. We did not know
it was going to look like that, we really thought
it was going to look like an eel or a lamprey. Coming
out the top of her head. Now if we thought for a
minute we'd realize well a lamprey looks kind of
like a big penis and it particularly did the way
it was realized. It wasn't intentional, now would
we have a lesbian cut off a giant penis? Nooo, that's
icky and uh unpleasant, and very strange. However,
once it had happened, we felt free to comment on
it because you would comment on it. So we had the
Willow Tara conversation where they're talking about
it. Which I thought worked really well, I felt.
It's what's called hanging a lantern on it. When
there is something obvious about what you have done,
obviously flawed or coincidental or just something
that you are afraid people are going to be distracted
by knowing... You do what's called hanging a lantern
on it, which is where the characters point it out
and go oh oh ok there is that funny looking thing
in the corner and now you can pay attention to what's
happening with the story. |
| C: |
Buffy as a show does that as a whole.
It mocks itself so often. |
| J: |
We don't want to say mock so much
because we don't make fun of the show or our characters,
but we do sometimes go... look at that funny thing.
I guess it's kind of like mocking. So I was very
pleased with whoever wrote that exchange, I think
that was in ummm... was that in DeKnight's script?
It was the one where Anya is trying to get revenge...
well whoever it was I thought it was really clever
to point that out. |
| K: |
It might have been Drew. |
| J: |
Yeah might have been, anyway I thought
it was very clever. And no we did not intend that
to look like a big penis, we were very startled
when it did. |
| C: |
Who decided on the fast food restaraunt
as Buffy's place of employment and did you have
a specific experience in fast food that drew on? |
| J: |
Everybody had specific fast food experiences
except me. I never worked in fast food, but Marti
had done a lot, Marti had worked and McDonalds and
had a lot of interesting insight. My boyfriend had
worked at some dreadful fast food places in Ohio.
Really some awful sounding places so he had all
the information about the buttons and the beeping
and the grill. We almost backed away from having
in her in fast food when Joss remembered she had
waitresses before. We were like, yeah but this feels
like it's different. Fast food is a whole different
kind of job than working in a diner. You wouldn't
believe the amount and length of the conversations
about what Buffy should do for a living. It needed
to be something just awful and finally decided that
fast food was about as awful as we could think of.
And I love food, I think food is funny, there is
a reason Band Candy is my script and Gingerbread
is my script. |
| C: |
Let's talk a little bit about the
recent story... about Willow Tara, the whole Tara
death and Willow, what happened to her afterwards.
Obviously, a lot of people are upset over Tara's
death. |
| K: |
I'm still upset. |
| J: |
Yes as we intended. We're upset ourselves.
There was... I didn't think Joss was going to be
able to do it. He really had to struggle with killing
her and the fact that it was so painful was what
we knew would make it work. That's... we knew it
would hurt. And that's what we needed, otherwise
we just can't take Willow where we needed to take
her. |
| K: |
What about, how do you guys feel about
all the backlash? |
| J: |
I hadn't been aware that there was
backlash. Although we did talk about it... um we
knew... what we knew has been done with gay characters
is that you introduce one just to kill them. We
knew that wasn't what we were doing. Tara had been
on the show a very long time, very long, not as
long as Buffy but she clearly had not been brought
in as cannon fodder. Because when you do that, you
bring them in and you kill them right away. And
when you do that it's a punishment. We felt that
this was so clearly not a punishment for being gay,
her being gay... she wasn't gay bashed. She was
shot accidentally. We did talk about it, we did
talk about we're doing that thing, we're killing
the lesbian. But, we don't... it didn't feel that
way to us because she wasn't the lesbian character
anymore. Willow and Tara are both lesbians, Willow
didn't die. Willow was our main character, if you
gonna, wanted to make some horrible message about
killing the lesbians, you'd kill her. |
| C: |
No, but she went evil. |
| J: |
She did go evil, but she went evil
out of deep loving grief. |
| K: |
That's something you guys had decided. |
| J: |
Yes we knew we were gonna make her
evil. We had to figure out how and that seemed to
be the best way how. And we really do think of them
as one of our couples, ya know we've got Buffy /
Spike, Xander / Anya and and Tara / Willow... we
really don't... when we think of a story for them,
a situation for them, we never go from what should
happen to the lesbians, it's what should happen
to that couple. So we really stopped thinking of
them as the gay couple and just thought of them
as a couple. |
| C: |
Then I guess I would ask, playing
Devil's Advocate here, maybe you should have thought
of them as the lesbian couple because obviously
a lot of people look up to them as uh, as some kind
of role models. What is your responsibility as writers
to these fans. |
| J: |
Well I think we would be shirking
the responsibility if um Willow then goes out and
get's herself a boy. Then that seems to me that
we have said something about lesbianess. What we
have said instead, are we view our characters as
such real and three dimensional characters that
good things can happen to them, bad things can happen
to them... they aren't templates anymore, these
are people. We hope we've created people. |
| C: |
Obviously a lot of people want to
know, a lot of the backlash, a lot of the people
are going to be tuning out from here on out. Because
of what has happened. |
| J: |
People always say they are not going
to watch anymore and our numbers stay exactly the
same. |
| C: |
But, but they've gone down this year. |
| J: |
Um... yeah... but, our boy numbers
went up. So you can look at the numbers any which
way but um we're also at season six of a long running
show, um fans have gone away to college. I didn't
watch tv when I was in college. We certainly feel
we did a really bang up season. |
| C: |
So that is the general consensus. |
| J: |
Oh yeah, we really like the season.
We feel we did a really good job. I mean gosh, just
look at the musical alone. Even if you took the
musical out, I think it's a really strong season. |
| C: |
It's a very different season from
what you guys have done before. |
| J: |
Yes and next season is going to be
completely different that, we're going a whole different
way next season. |
| C: |
Oh, what way is that? |
| J: |
We're sort of looping around to the
beginning, it's gonna be more funny, more stand
alones. |
| |
*Chat about much more funny |
| J: |
No, I'm distressed to hear that people
are saying they won't keep watching because what
does that say... I mean Tara wasn't our only gay
character. Willow is still going to be around being
a really good role model, dealing... dealing with
grief and moving on. I'm sure eventually she will
date and we didn't kill lesbianosity, we killed
one, one lonely girl who we feel... who we miss
too. Who happened to be gay and we miss her terribly.
And uh, there is... no reason to not think, that
we won't being seeing a little or more of Tara or
something that looks like Tara... |
| K: |
See I knew it. |
| C: |
She is picking and choosing her words
sooo carefully. You should see her. |
| K: |
It's just like Twin Peaks when you
know, what's her face dies and then she comes back
as her cousin, with the dark hair. |
| J: |
Yeah um, um if people, I don't know
if people are... exactly why people are saying their
going to tune out, but if they are tuning out because
they miss Amber Benson... do hmm, hmm (various sounds
of mumbling) |
| C: |
Well said. |
| K: |
Will Willow, can you just sort of
hint, obviously she is going to need to deal with
the fact that she killed a human. |
| C: |
Yes please, let's deal with this. |
| K: |
She filleted a human. Is she going
to go to jail, I mean how is this going to work? |
| J: |
Um no, she doesn't go to jail. Um,
um she is somewhere interesting when we open next
season. She is up in a place. Doing a thing. With
somebody, with somebody that we know. |
| C: |
What the hell is going on... (laughing) |
| C: |
She's evil. |
| K: |
We always say Joss is evil, it's really
Jane. |
